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1321  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: March 04, 2015, 10:24:09 PM
Why does it matter who he is?
Why does it matter to you too ?
Did you here the joke about the two sad biologists that walked into a bar and the bartender asked them what's da matter?
Shouldn't the bartender ask them what they want to drink ?
If two bored physicists walked in instead, and he asked 'what's da matter', would he get a two-hour lecture about it, including inertia, gravitation, leptons, baryons, quarks, neutronium, relativity, and the Higgs boson?
Why would physicists walk into a bar anyway? To study how fast they will be a victim of gravity after drinking alcohol?
Well, two chemists would never walk into a bar; because, how could they ever decide which alcohol they want?
What if they walked into a different kind of bar?

Wouldn't Einstein say that one cannot ever know whether it was the bar that walked into the man instead?
1322  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: March 04, 2015, 09:43:40 PM
Why does it matter who he is?
Why does it matter to you too ?
Did you here the joke about the two sad biologists that walked into a bar and the bartender asked them what's da matter?
Shouldn't the bartender ask them what they want to drink ?
If two bored physicists walked in instead, and he asked 'what's da matter', would he get a two-hour lecture about it, including inertia, gravitation, leptons, baryons, quarks, neutronium, relativity, and the Higgs boson?
Why would physicists walk into a bar anyway? To study how fast they will be a victim of gravity after drinking alcohol?
Well, two chemists would never walk into a bar; because, how could they ever decide which alcohol they want?
1323  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: March 04, 2015, 09:36:45 PM


Does that mean that the price will keep increasing steadily all the way to single digits?  Wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzNzgsAE4F0



1324  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: March 04, 2015, 09:13:12 PM
Fortress Investment bought some number of bitcoins directly in 2013.  Bitcoin was the only red stain in their 2014 quarterly reports.  Fortress quicky got rid of their bitcoins, swapping them for equity in the Pantera subsidiary that runs the PBP bitcoin fund. (Note: not shares of the fund, but shares of the managing company).
While I see articles noting that Fortress rolled their $20m bitcoin stake into Pantera, their latest 10K indicates they still seem to own bitcoin directly, and it traces back to the $20m original investment in 2013.

Go to link below and search for bitcoin, and you will see the $20m investment in 2012, the year end 2013 value of $16.298m, and year-end 2014 value of $6.828m, a 58% decline, which is consistent with the market decline from 12/31/13 to 12/31/14.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1380393/000138039315000003/fig-20141231x10k.htm

Thanks for the link!  

Indeed, those amounts match 6828 k /  ~315 and 16298 k /  ~725 are approximately equal to 22'000 BTC.

You saw those articles too, so I was not dreaming.  Perhaps the deal got sour after it was announced?  Or perhaps Fortress actually swapped the raw BTC for PBP fund shares, not for Pantera equity; which, being pegged to BTC, are counted as BTC for the purposes of the report?
   
EDIT: since they spent 20 M$ on those coins, they must have bought when the price was ~910 $/BTC, i.e. around 2013-11-26 --- only 3 days before the peak. (They could have bought in early or mid Dec/2013, near the peak of the first reboud; but that seems rather unlikely.)  It is comforting to know that big whales make mistakes too...
1325  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: March 04, 2015, 08:50:52 PM
Why does it matter who he is?
Why does it matter to you too ?
Did you here the joke about the two sad biologists that walked into a bar and the bartender asked them what's da matter?
Shouldn't the bartender ask them what they want to drink ?
If two bored physicists walked in instead, and he asked 'what's da matter', would he get a two-hour lecture about it, including inertia, gravitation, leptons, baryons, quarks, neutronium, relativity, and the Higgs boson?
1326  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: March 04, 2015, 06:51:27 PM
Bitcoin isn't Gold, Steel or Cement. In theory an ETF (or similar) shouldn't be necessary. I understand that a lot of investors like to work that way, but it's kind of odd when they just as well could open an account on Coinbase and trensfer it to a Trezor.
institutional investors dont or rather cant do that.

In terms of safety, investing in bitcoin (remotely) by buying GBTC shares does not seem to be much safer than buying and keeping (a bit more directly) in a Coinbase wallet. 

As for institutional investors: recall that Fortress Investment (a multibillion financial outfit, not to be confused with TradeFortress) bought some number of bitcoins directly in 2013.  Bitcoin was the only red stain in their 2014 quarterly reports.  Fortress quicky got rid of their bitcoins, swapping them for equity in the Pantera subsidiary that runs the PBP bitcoin fund. (Note: not shares of the fund, but shares of the managing company).

This example shows that some big institutional investors could invest in raw bitcoins, but currently don't want to, presumably due to its high risk and unpredictable future.  These same reasons should prevent them from buying GBTC or COIN shares, since their financial risk cannot be better than bitcoin's.
1327  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: March 04, 2015, 01:00:39 PM

That Resolution (not law, passed by a very narrow margin) merely creates a Council to study the issue, but study it very carefully:

65     BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Legislature and the Governor encourage the
66     council to share its findings, including recommendations, with the Revenue and Taxation
67     Interim Committee before September 1, 2016.

 Cheesy

It also says

68          BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that a copy of this resolution be sent to the Utah state
69     treasurer, the director of the Division of Finance, the executive director of the Governor's
70     Office of Management and Budget, the executive director of the State Tax Commission, local
71     advocacy groups that support the use of bitcoin, and other public or private entities that may
72     have interest in the Council on Payment Options for State Services as proposed by this
73     resolution.

What, no Prof. Bitcorns?

And what about Litecoin, Dogecoin, or Monero?  I thought that in Utah a man was "able to share his love with as many cryptocoins as he likes" ... Grin
1328  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: March 04, 2015, 04:10:38 AM
I have heard rumors of semi-autonomous zones being built on the coast of Honduras
(Sorry, no link, it was just an interview of some guy on some podcast, some time ago, but it definitely peaked my interest.)

IIRC, the government that deposed the left-leaning president Zelaya wanted to hand over the administration of some towns to private companies instead of elected mayors and aldermen.  I don't know what came of it.
1329  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: March 04, 2015, 03:37:26 AM
I posted a few weeks ago at the SeconMarket BIT thread:

The explanation of the plot is here.

Note the four steps in the blue and magenta lines in Nov/2014, in a plot that was otherwise flat since may/2014.  Those steps are four investments in SMBIT, at 1 week intervals, adding to ~10 M$. They triggered the acquisition by SMBIT of ~7000 BTC.  Those buys need not have been imemdiate; the blue line suggests that, buy it is computed from the magenta line, not from independent data.

Curiously those four investments almost coincide with the rise of the Nov/2014 "mini-bubble".   Could those buys have been the cause (or trigger) of that mini-bubble? 7000 BTC seems too little to have a visible effect...
1330  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: March 04, 2015, 01:58:28 AM
PS: in that financial report by DigitalBTC (now renamed DigitalCC?) they also say that they had a "Net Loss After Tax of 2.3 million AUD due primarily to non-cash accounting adjustments to the fair value of bitcoin inventory and performance rights and depreciation".
1331  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: March 04, 2015, 01:48:31 AM
I don't believe that large miners operators can afford to just hodl for few months.

The only miner for which we have reliable data is the Australian company DigitalBTC, because it is publicly owned (i.e. its shares are traded on the Australian stock exchange) and therefore they have to publish audited and detailed quarterly reports.  They also act as BTC brokers, and are trying to become a software company.

In their financial report for the second half of 2014 they say

    Bitcoins held on 30 June 2014: 3,600
    Bitcoins earned from mining: 9,717
    Bitcoins sold from mining: (12,559)
    Bitcoins purchased for acquisition of mining hardware: 3,165
    Bitcoin paid for acquisition of mining hardware: (3,165)
    Increase in Liquidity Desk bitcoins: 1,614
    Bitcoins held on 31 December 2014: 2,372


Browsing through the exchange "wallets" exposed in http://www.walletexplorer.com/ we can also find transactions that move largish lumps of BTC from some miners to some exchanges.  For example, in Bitpay's presumed input wallet we find these deposits by KnC

2013-11-18 10:46:54 085b09cfbe1d6f5214842ded9d8d2a50e467a6b51f82fbdaefecc63e7d2b2ebb   +2900.00000000 KnCMiner.com
2013-11-23 17:40:08 c61b49f50a6fd7112747375f4cd14cde6e4a2c28d9b88b0ed64b838087fc258d   +1000.00000000 KnCMiner.com
2014-01-03 07:20:58 a53e12545d054126d422fdb4f664107843ba5aa2555d9bdb1f759631febb82cd    +888.67670000 KnCMiner.com
2014-01-06 15:00:31 fe378b97f1f5dc4dbf3ee6059c6f226988c090eb149a90a66baf0bf5c7a0fb9e   +1375.69510000 KnCMiner.com
2014-01-13 10:34:52 fb49859a319462afccea88d50ef0238ada66679ebbb64f172dc5a6dcf57fa41e    +849.35700000 KnCMiner.com
2014-01-21 06:29:42 1e89707414df189934e21ef7c200ef7833e2867a062e4084c9a07636d5d0fa3d    +497.57430000 KnCMiner.com
2014-01-22 16:06:12 fc0c75776779c48ba4b6fd843848ae7b26ab56263c99aaf0024e4c9056c5a779    +672.85790000 KnCMiner.com
2014-01-27 07:31:57 98435bdcabee4aa43d951f8f4d402fa61ae0006a8388aba49baae3e74af2d8fc    +493.60870000 KnCMiner.com
2014-01-27 16:44:32 4570a7a8ae134099def4b6c26c79c8f90b8c754339dafb941ac508835956e1b0    +182.79950000 KnCMiner.com
2014-02-18 08:24:31 a6b640f6b3ccc0a88730797b925a558f25daf8e6390636861583246a810601a3   +4496.11720000 KnCMiner.com
2014-02-20 08:13:24 026f92da78db19fe561a05f0a77104619783452a8f24a4efed8719abd9553a95    +460.31630000 KnCMiner.com
2014-02-24 16:09:50 0621cddd70fb86f74adda088209831516e6ab9384663fd517bc7fbee7a12f30b   +1758.82190000 KnCMiner.com
2014-02-27 14:38:24 7396ca676a238a21fb45f0b96d6191053b25daef0e3e56ad2d54c7cd46442479   +1420.45130000 KnCMiner.com

These amounts may be KnC paying their bills and buying equipment.   BitPay presumably sold those coins soon afterwards (One can see in that wallet also many large transfers to Bitstamp and Bitfinex.)

These are only samples, that show only that miners like KnC sometimes sell some of their coins; but we cannot tell how much, because only some of their addresses are identified as theirs in that site.
1332  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: March 03, 2015, 08:58:47 PM
enabled.
BIT investors have been barred from selling their shares to other people since the beginning.  The listing on OTCQX and the possibility OTC trading of the shares (only those older than 12 months) does not directly cause buying or selling of BTC by the fund.  However, if the BIT shares get traded at significantly more than their nominal value (the market price of 0.1 BTC), BIT may buy more BTC and issue more shares to sell to the brokers.  Conversely, if the BIT shares get traded at significantly less than their nominal value, BIT may buy back those shares from the brokers and sell the corresponding BTC.

The last paragraph is incorrect.  You are right that BIT is taking advantage of an exemption that allows unregistered shares to be sold without restriction (i.e. to the "public") after they have been held for a year.  But this means that the arbitrage method you mention by BIT cannot work.  If they buy more bitcoin and issue shares, whether to brokers or otherwise, those shares will not qualify for the 12 month exception, and cannot be sold to the "public."  (They could potentially be sold to other accredited investors if permitted by the fund.)

The BIT fund will be more comparable to a closed end fund, than a mutual fund or ETF.  Mutual funds and ETFs have mechanisms to expand or contract their assets based on supply and demand of shares, meaning the NAV and the public price are usually quite tight.  Closed end funds do not, shares are issued in one or more transactions, and then resold in the public market.  They can therefore trade at material discounts or premiums to their NAVs.

Oops, thanks for the correction.
1333  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: March 03, 2015, 08:47:49 PM
how pissed will the US gov be if they sell off their tons of btc and bitcoin rallies 10 fold straight away after lol

The people in charge of the auction don't care much for the sale value per se, because they don't get comission on it.  Their main worry is not doing anything that they can be blamed for.  If the auction fetches somewhat less than market, and/or the price rallies just afterwards, *shrug*.  If the auction fetches much below market because  the lots and/or the total amount were excessive, *oops*, that may leave a stain on their service record.  If they fail to follow some rule or law, and some bidder makes a fuss abut it, that is *oops* too.  (There may be corruption, e.g. leaking of bids to other bidders, but that shoudl not make much difference on the sle price.)
1334  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: March 03, 2015, 08:34:34 PM
you would think its obvious that second market is going to buy up the lot if possible..

SecondMarket did not bid for themselves on the previous auctions.  In both cases, they only formed syndicates (assaciations) of small bidders who would not bid for a whole 2000 or 3000 BTC lot, and merged their bids into full-lot bids.  On the first auction they did not get a satoshi, Tim Draper took all the ~30'000 BTC.  On the second auction they got 48'000 of the 50'000 BTC, and Tim took the other 2000.  SecondMarket promptly distributed the 48'000 BTC to the small bidders, after taking a 1% service fee from them.

Their BIT fund only buys BTC when investos buy BIT shares.  BIT now has ~135'000 BTC in their possession, but it has not grown since May/2014, except for a 10 M USD  "freak" investment in November.   Only a few investors had the opportunity to withdraw; redemptions have been disbled since October, and it is not clear whether they will ever be re-enabled.

BIT investors have been barred from selling their shares to other people since the beginning.  The listing on OTCQX and the possibility OTC trading of the shares (only those older than 12 months) does not directly cause buying or selling of BTC by the fund.  However, if the BIT shares get traded at significantly more than their nominal value (the market price of 0.1 BTC), BIT may buy more BTC and issue more shares to sell to the brokers.  Conversely, if the BIT shares get traded at significantly less than their nominal value, BIT may buy back those shares from the brokers and sell the corresponding BTC.
1335  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: March 03, 2015, 05:04:00 PM
100 btc payments is not the same thing as 100 btc in payments ... right?
Twice a week adds up to more than 100 payments, so I guess they mean 100 btc in payments.

How much is the Wordpress hosting fee/subscription?
1336  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: March 03, 2015, 03:13:37 PM
I already posted this, but there seem to be many new users who may need the information:

The English suffix "-ant" can be attached to some verb roots to yield an adjective or noun that means someone or something who is doing (or just did, or customarily does) the action signified by the verb.  The root verbs that take this suffix seem to be mostly of Latin origin, that had infinitive ending in "-are"; those with "-ere" Latin infinitives take the "-ent" suffix instead.  Thus for example, while "to solve" gives "solvent", and "to precede" gives "predecent", we have "protestant" from "to protest", "claimant" from "to claim", "entrant" from "to enter" (Latin "entrare"), etc.

Remeber this whenever you feel the urge to click "ignore".
1337  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: March 03, 2015, 12:55:58 PM
I said you can't ignore the consequences of ignorance. Didn't you read it?
But you said that ignoring what I can ignore is not good, so ignoring what I can't ignore must be worse than just 'not good', right?
1338  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: March 03, 2015, 07:31:03 AM
Isn't this thread about asking questions?
oh :-|  Maybe i was wrong, and should apologize ?
Or pretend you were right?
"You can ignore the truth but not the consequences of your ignorance." Isn't that true?
If it is true, then, is it OK if I ignore it?
Why would you ignore a guy of hero level with BTC pic as an avatar and so much time ?
But didn't he himself say that I can ignore the truth?
I did, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing, does it?
Oh... but, if ignoring the truth is not good, what about ignoring the consequences of one's ignorance -- is that a criminal offense?
1339  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: March 03, 2015, 07:15:54 AM
Isn't this thread about asking questions?
oh :-|  Maybe i was wrong, and should apologize ?
Or pretend you were right?
"You can ignore the truth but not the consequences of your ignorance." Isn't that true?
If it is true, then, is it OK if I ignore it?
Why would you ignore a guy of hero level with BTC pic as an avatar and so much time ?
But didn't he himself say that I can ignore the truth?
1340  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: March 03, 2015, 07:12:12 AM
Isn't this thread about asking questions?
oh :-|  Maybe i was wrong, and should apologize ?
Or pretend you were right?
"You can ignore the truth but not the consequences of your ignorance." Isn't that true?
If it is true, then, is it OK if I ignore it?
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