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821  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 15, 2015, 05:26:00 AM
If I was those people I'd buy BTC from these little markets (Coinbase, Bitstamp & others) then sell for a 2x profit on OTCmarkets.

The catch is that you must give the bitcoins to Grayscale, they will give you fresh BIT shares, and you must keep them for 1 year before you can sell them on the OTCQX market.  Good luck...
822  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 15, 2015, 01:26:41 AM
None of the big exchanges have had particularly big volume recently, so it must be fairly easy to manipulate the price. There have been long periods when 200 Bitcoins could affect things one way or the other. Three thousand Bitcoins today can have the same effect that required fifteen thousand Bitcoins last January.

That is what I meant in my previous post.  At first sight, the volume in USD is  not much lower than it was a year ago:

Exchange  ! 2014-05 ! 2015-05
----------+---------+--------
Huobi     |     5.3 |     5.3
OKCoin.cn |     9.6 |    10.7
BTC-China |     1.2 |    12.6
Bitstamp  |     1.9 |     0.9
Bitfinex  |     1.7 |     2.5
BTC-e     |     0.9 |     0.9

All values are very rough eyeball readings from charts, converted to millions of USD per day.  Although Bitstamp lost half of its volume, Bitfinex doubled and the other exchanges varied surprisingly little.  (BTC-China was practically dead last May, probably because of bank access problems and/or unattractive fee structure. But its volume today is comparable to that of October, when it had been revived.)

However, the price moves seem "different" than a year ago; more "bimodal": scattered large changes separated by periods of nearly constant price.  Moreover, there seems to be much less rebound after those big changes: the price just stays where the big change dropped it off.

Could it be that most of the volume is now robots intensively trading fractions of BTC, with no intiative in moving the price; and the big changes are a few humans making their moves?

EDIT:  lower --> not not much lower
823  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 14, 2015, 09:42:21 PM
The volume was 20894.00 according to FreeRealTime.com (1000 shares more than the OTCQX number).
Did you sum the actual trades? Even this FreeRealTime.com page says 19,894.
Weird.  I copied the trades from FRT and added the volumes -- twice, because it did not match the OTCQX page.
I suppose 19,894 is correct then, there must be a bug in the list or in my summation...
824  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 14, 2015, 09:22:36 PM
The GBTC market closed at 45 dollars per share with volume of 19894 shares (less than 1950 bitcoins).

The volume was 20894.00 according to FreeRealTime.com (1000 shares more than the OTCQX number).

Summary:

Date       ! price range (OTQ)  ! price range (alt)   ! volume
-----------+--------------------+---------------------+-------------
2015-05-04 | 37.98 --   42.00   | ??.00 -- 200.00 [1] |     765
2015-05-05 | 55.00 --   94.86   | 50.00 -- 175.00 [1] |     435
2015-05-06 |  N/A  --    N/A    | 65.00 --  68.00 [1] |     125
2015-05-07 | 40.00 --   66.00   | 40.00 --  86.00 [2] |    2844
2015-05-08 | 49.00 --   59.00   | 49.00 --  59.00 [2] |   14807

2015-05-11 | 50.00 --   57.95   | 49.50 --  57.95 [2] |    2756
2015-05-12 | 49.00 --   50.01   | 49.00 --  52.25 [2] |    2286
2015-05-13 | 49.00 --   49.00   | 49.00 --  50.00 [2] |     327
2015-05-14 | 44.00 --   49.00   | 44.00 --  49.95 [2] |   20894

"OTQ" data from the GBTC quote page at OTCQX.
[1] from this post.
[2] from the Freerealtime site.

825  Economy / Speculation / Re: $GBTC Speculation, Information, and Cogitation on: May 14, 2015, 02:30:22 PM
Anyway, after the market closed they said the price was 49.00, although the sell was under 100 shares and shouldn't have counted. Then the next day they apparently decided it indeed didn't count.

But the listing shows a 174 share trade at 49.00.  Why do you say that it should not have counted?
826  Economy / Speculation / Re: SecondMarket Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer on: May 14, 2015, 03:46:37 AM
That the BIT 12 month bagholders of 100's of thousands of shares refuse to sell at $490 per btc equiv? Me too.

Could they be waiting in the hope that the GBTC price will go higher?
827  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 13, 2015, 11:58:46 PM
Calling it: incoming china ban.

Too small a drop for that.

In the last 2 months I count at least 6 drops like this one or larger.

But the market feels quite differet from a year ago, don't you think?  While the volume is still quite high, perhaps it is almost entirely a few robots trading fractions of BTC over and over again.  So, when a real trader moves, the price jumps by 5-10 dollars and gets stuck there, instead of bouncing back...
828  Economy / Speculation / Re: $GBTC Speculation, Information, and Cogitation on: May 13, 2015, 11:26:45 PM
It looks like OCTMarkets lied to me. GBTC officially closed at 49.95 yesterday, not at 49.00. Today it should be 49.00, though.

According to other posters, the daily ranges shown in the OTCQX quote page ignore any trades smaller than 100 shares.  Today there was only one trade above the threshold: 175 shares at 49.00 $/share.  There were however other smaller trades at 49.95 and 50.00 $/share.
829  Economy / Speculation / Re: $GBTC Speculation, Information, and Cogitation on: May 13, 2015, 11:16:37 PM
I'm legitimately surprised exchange prices arnt rising with these steady gbtc prices.

Don t forget that the average BIT share was bought for ~40--50 USD.  I would think that 24 $/share is way too low for those who have those shares, while 49 $/share is way too high for those who are thinking of investing in bitcoin through BIT.
830  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 13, 2015, 01:00:39 PM
Believe it or not, one of the companies that I'm most worried about is Coinbase. 

For example, go look at their employee roster page at the bottom.
https://www.coinbase.com/about

In in the past 2 years, I have literally watched that page grow from about 5 employees to what you see now on that page.  And they just keep adding more employees.  At the rate they are going, unless something drastically changes I don't think that they are going to have a business model that will support all of that headcount and still make a profit.

My guess is that they and Circle will be shifting the bulk of their business to the USD-to-USD payment market (i. e. PayPal's turf), which is orders of magniture bigger than BTC-to-USD (BitPay's model) and USD-to-BTC.  For that market, their staff does not seem exaggerated at all.

Circle also seeems to be eyeing the USD-to-CNY and/or CNY-to-USD remittance markets.  I imagine that bitcoin will be an internal instrument that will be used if and when it advantageous to them.
831  Economy / Speculation / Re: SecondMarket Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer on: May 12, 2015, 02:32:23 AM
y is SecondMarket. 
I wish I could find a copy of the original prospectus.  I'm curious if the initial trust had all the complexities related to authorized participants, or if it was a simpler structure, and was amended once they refined the OTC listing approach, in anticipation of eventually behaving more like a true ETF.

Since the beginning, AFAIK, the full investment contract was confidential and shown only to investors, apparently with certain non-disclosure restrictions.  The information on the BIT website was fairly terse.  Grayscale was not mentioned (and presumably did not exist).  There was no mention of brokers, Authorized Participants, or other intermediaries: accredited investors could buy BIT shares directly from BIT/Secondmarket, in dollars (minimum 25'000 USD, IIRC), and redeem them for dollars after the 6 month holding period.
832  Economy / Speculation / Re: SecondMarket Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer on: May 12, 2015, 12:32:08 AM
Jorge's description isn't exactly how it works.  Every business day, the Trust calculates its Net Asset Value (NAV).  NAV is value of bitcoin and any cash, less accrued fees, expenses and some other stuff.  As fee is earned or other expenses are paid, cash is used to pay those expenses, and bitcoin is sold if necessary.  So NAV is constantly adjusting based on value of bitcoin and fees / expenses accrued.  See here, searching for "Non-GAAP Net Asset Value." https://www.otciq.com/otciq/ajax/showFinancialReportById.pdf?id=135313

If and when redemptions are resumed, the NAV would be the basis on which redemptions are made.  The NAV is also the price at which accredited investors can purchase directly from BIT, although those shares would not be publicly tradeable for 12 months.

Not disputing this, except a detail: if I read correctly, the official filed documents (available through the OTCQX site) say that Grayscale takes only bitcoins, not dollars, when issuing new shares; and returns only bitcoins, not dollars, when the shares are dedeemed.  It is some top-level brokers (of which SecondMarket is one, possibly the only one) who may take dollars from clients and buy bitcoins to give to Grayscale, or get bitcoins from Grayscale and may sell them to give dollars to clients.  Did I read correctly?
833  Economy / Speculation / Re: SecondMarket Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer on: May 11, 2015, 01:16:47 PM
You could sell your BIT shares before GBTC.  If you held for 12 months.  They were allowed to be liquidated once per month.  That is considered a secondary market, albeit a very illiquid one.

Well, what can I say? That is not my recollection.  What I read said that after 6 months shareholders could redeem, but not resell (except in special cases with express authorization from SecondMarket).  The promised market was definitely distinct from redemption and from such exceptional sales.
834  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 11, 2015, 02:42:35 AM
Quote
Sometimes I think the best thing would be for Satoshi to just dump all his coins right now, take us back to double, maybe single digits and really test the limits of this market.

I hope you were just exaggerating... because if Satoshi were to fully dump his/her/its holdings, I have little hope that bitcoin would rise back up... simply because most people here are not believers, but rather, just in it for the money.

The worst thing that happened to bitcoin was the fast price increase.  It turned it from an experimental currency into a pyramid schema, created an absurdly overinflated and overconcentrated mining industry, got the system to depend on a steady supply of new coin buyers instead of actual users, attracted many scammers and heckers, and snake oil salesmen...
835  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: It's Happening .... The secrets of 21 inc revealed, and its what we hoped for. on: May 11, 2015, 12:50:29 AM
Interesting list of Jobs they are looking for giving credence to these journalists' articles:

https://21.co/#jobs

Interesting indeed, but I don't see anything that suggests appliances.  It may have something to do with mobile access (Android and iOS), though. 

Cound it be something related to payments instead of mining -- like NFC receivers for points-of-sale and/or smartphones? Or a hardware wallet that interact with your smartphone?

836  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: It's Happening .... The secrets of 21 inc revealed, and its what we hoped for. on: May 11, 2015, 12:43:03 AM
It isn't stealing if there is no dishonesty or false claims being made.

Hey, the method I proposed does not use dishonesty or false claims either!  Cheesy
837  Economy / Speculation / Re: SecondMarket Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer on: May 11, 2015, 12:39:46 AM


Not sure about the "nimble" part... When the fund started, they had promised an open market by Q2 2014.  (And the minimum holding period was only 6 months.)

Fortune, Dan Primack,  2013-09-26
http://fortune.com/2013/09/26/first-bitcoin-investment-fund-launches/
Quote
Bitcoin Investment Trust plans to spend the first several months in asset-gathering mode, and will open up the secondary markets for trading six months after launch.

And I think you are misconstruing that quote.  

First, it doesn't say "minimum holding period" of 6 months.  It say they planned to open up "secondary markets" for trading six months after launch.  

Second, secondary markets does not mean "open" market, which I'm assuming you take as equal to a "public" market.  Long before bitcoin, Second Market got its start serving as a way for people to trade non-public securities.  I.e. owners of Facebook stock before it went public, that were acquired either in VC rounds or via employee grants.  It required purchasers to be accredited investors, and thus the transactions were exempt from requiring an SEC approved registration statement.

There may be nuances that escape me, but I remember reading such from the documents on their website.  The clients could not redeem or sell their shares to other people before 6 months, and after that they would be allowed to trade them in a specific market, that had been promised for Q1 or Q2 2014.  I recall rumbling in the SecondMarket Observer thread when Q2 2014 was up and no such market was provided.

If that "secondary market" was not OTCQX or something like it, what could it be? I had no news of any trading of BIT shares going on before GBTC started trading on OTCQX.

And I don't know when the 6 months became 12.  
838  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: It's Happening .... The secrets of 21 inc revealed, and its what we hoped for. on: May 10, 2015, 11:43:37 PM
Well, it seems that their plan is indeed to insert ASIC mining chips into appliances and steal use free electricity from the consumers:

http://www.coinspeaker.com/2015/05/10/startup-21-inc-wants-to-put-bitcoin-miner-in-toaster-9190/

(Unless the author of that article tooks that "fact" from this forum...)

In another forum, someone mentioned the CueCat story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CueCat

I still don't understand why they would use such a complicated method to take money from gullible bitcoiners, instead of the simplest method that I devised about a year ago:



[ The image may appear truncated due to a forum bug. Click on the image for the full-size version ]
839  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: It's Happening .... The secrets of 21 inc revealed, and its what we hoped for. on: May 10, 2015, 09:42:00 PM
I'm beginning to understand your and s1gs3gv arguments to indicate that if 21 can secure a license contract with a major manufacturer and immediately sell at scale routers with embedded ASIC chips in the board that uses an extra 10w and produce  200GH/s each for a very nominal cost of raising the router unit price up a couple dollars it could work .  The reason that this would succeed and why Commercial ASICs would fail is because adding an ASIC chip within a router is much easier and cheaper than building a standalone Commercial ASIC unit and thus they could pass those savings onto the consumers. Additionally, the whole mining setup, maintenance, troubleshooting , liability, and power concerns would be eliminated thus further adding efficiencies that commercial miners couldn't compete with. 21 would only need to make 1-3 dollars per router to be profitable because the costs are so small.

Even so... a standalone mining rig would use dozens or hundreds of those ASICS and consume hundreds of watts, 24/7.  If you divide those "extra costs" of the rig (cabinet, PSU, maintenace, etc.) by its hashpower, the rig would probably still be more cost-effective than "parasitic" ASICs in other consumer equipment.

I still cannot see how this hypothetical plan can make economic sense.  They may be into mining, but I suspect that appliance-embedded chips is not their plan.
840  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: It's Happening .... The secrets of 21 inc revealed, and its what we hoped for. on: May 10, 2015, 09:22:44 PM
I don't understand why are you making ROI calculations. I find that 10W extra per month will not bother anyone. I keep my router plugged 24/7 and it produces nothing. Why should that change if it had a bitcoin mining chip in it? Do you keep the router online all the time? The extra added cost is less than 1 coffee/1 coke bottle/etc. It's 1 dollar per month. It's nothing!

Why do you suddenly expect a ROI from something that was never supposed to bring any ROI?

Because the issue is not you wasting 10 W; it is someone else using 10 W of your power to his benefit.

Would you not mind if your neighbor pulled a cable from your home to feed his front porch light, even if it was just 10W -- for no other reason that he does not want to pay for those 10W?  If he did that without you being aware of it?

"You need a router? Well, we have this router A that costs $43 and consumes 15 W, and this other one B that does exactly the same thing but costs $51 and consumes 25 W; the difference being that B also does a certain computation for some company that does not want to pay for those 10W itself, and thinks that you will not mind paying for it.  If you buy B, you can fill a form at their site and every month they will mail you a check for 23 cents. You may opt to get that in bitcoin instead."

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