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1561  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: September 07, 2014, 01:35:29 PM
Did the lost Dutchman get lost  he has been missing a while don't you know?
I haven't heard if he found Lost or not.  What did he do to piss off the Lost Dutchman?
Why do you care about him?
Does anyone else feel that many users who were very active six months ago have gone missing since then?
1562  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: September 07, 2014, 01:17:29 PM
Personally i hope BTC stays where it is for another 2 months, then goes bananas

Are you sure that that's what you want?



PS. When will @theymos fix the image truncation bug?  
1563  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: September 07, 2014, 06:23:39 AM
Did you know that the anagram for Did You Fart is Fruity Dado?
<interesting: would make a nice tee>
Are you trying to push us into looking for anagrams of "gleb gamow"?
What is the anagram for "Thanatos Oomiaks"?
If I am not mistaken there are 9081072000 of them, which one do you want?
Are you trying to trick up to call 908-107-2000?
Speaking of anagrams: shoot, I am Satan, OK?
1564  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: September 07, 2014, 05:16:08 AM
Did you know that the anagram for Did You Fart is Fruity Dado?
<interesting: would make a nice tee>
Are you trying to push us into looking for anagrams of "gleb gamow"?
What is the anagram for "Thanatos Oomiaks"?
If I am not mistaken there are 9081072000 of them, which one do you want?
1565  Economy / Speculation / Re: rpietila Calling the Bottom on: September 07, 2014, 04:16:48 AM
Incredible graph! but no matter how many graphs you have, all these fuds like fallling will not shut the fuck up  Roll Eyes

Noblesse oblige...  Grin

[...]
Anyway, those blockchain.info plots are rather strange.  They don't show increasing adoption.  I don't know what they are showing.
Transactions cost money. There is a hypothetical incentive for a hypothetical manipulator to "pad" the growth (e.g. a miner intending to sell at inflated prices), but the cost of faking those transactions is substantial,
The total fees being paid now are only ~10 BTC/day (~5000 USD/day), which divided by 70000 tx/day gives only 0.00014 BTC/tx, or little more than the minimum fee.  If one is tumbling 680'000 stolen MtGOX coins, a loss of 10 BTC/day is nothing.  If one is expecting to sell 200'000'000 USD of fund shares, one may be willing to spend 1% of that to simulate a vigorous bitcoin economy for a year.

The no. of transaction graph roughly matches total USD volume transferred roughly matches the no of addresses graph roughly matches the hash rate graph. If the data suggests (even though it is no guarantee for) exponential growth along several dimensions, the most likely conclusion, in the absence of contrary evidence, is that some underlying variable does undergo such growth in fact. [ ...]  Looking at the blockchain data however and questioning whether there was exponential growth until now is a stretch. [ ... ] the most pertinent graph. From 100 transactions a day to almost 100k transactions a day, over the course of 5 years.


All bitcoin indicators grew enormously over those five years.  I would question whether it is appropriate to call it 'exponential growth' and then extrapolate to the future, but that is not the point.

Hence, the conclusion based on the least assumptions is that the data is not fake, until evidence to the contrary is presented. (and, "the data doesn't look like commercial adoption" is no such evidence).

Like the Metcalfe Law plot that others have posted, the above plot squeezes the data for the last year into a tiny corner region of 3 by 0.2 cm at normal resolution.  One must look closely at that corner to notice that the number of transactions has not increased substantially over the last year.  One must look even closer to notice that the tiny wiggles in that plot are swings by 40% or more.

Now look at this plot of the estimated USD transaction volume per day, for the last year:


"Estimated" here apparently means "excluding the return-change outputs" as identified by some heuristic.
Note that the daily transaction volume in USD mostly decreased from ~Jan/01 to ~Mar/07, and was approximately constant from ~Mar/23 to now, apart from a couple of peaks/bumps (~Mar/07--Mar/23, ~May/22--Jun/20) and a depression (~Apr/27--May/21).  This is quite at odds with the "increasing adoption" that was supposed to be happening during this time, which should result in steadily increasing USD volume.

The plot of  the estimated BTC transaction volume per day is perhaps more revealing:


Note that the daily transaction volume in BTC was even more constant, arount 100'000 BTC/day, from Jan/01 to this day.  (While the March peak is more striking in this plot, the other bumps and dips are somewhat smaller.)  It is puzzling, for example, that the BTC volume on Jan/01 was almost the same as on May/01, even though the price dropped by 50% in the meantime.  I take this fact as evidence that most of the traffic is not payments, but activities for which the price is irrelevant -- such as tumbling.

The plot of number of transactions per day is also strange:


Note that this quantity too is fairly constant, between ~60'000 and ~70'000 tx/day, from ~Feb/10 to this day.  (The vertical scale of this plot starts at 40'000 tx/day, so the relative variations are smaller than what they appear.)  The March peak of the other plots is here an inconspicuous bump of about 8%.  (Therfore, that peak was the result of larger transactions, rather than more transactions.)   While the increase of ~20% in January could signify increased adoption, the stagnation since then again contradicts it. (Increased adoption should cause more transactions as well as more USD volume.)
1566  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: September 07, 2014, 01:06:56 AM
Did you know that the anagram for Did You Fart is Fruity Dado?
<interesting: would make a nice tee>
Are you trying to push us into looking for anagrams of "gleb gamow"?
1567  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: September 07, 2014, 12:58:43 AM
They did not say that.  You are putting your words into the mouths of 18th century jurists Smiley [ ... ] It's not clear to me why you emphasize the 'physical note', because with most modern currencies, the owner rarely actually possesses a physical note of any kind.

That lawsuit, and the crucial verdict, was about property of a specific physical note:
Quote
In the litigation Mr Crawfurd sought to vindicate a £20 Bank of Scotland note which had gone missing in the post and turned up some time later in the hands of the Royal Bank of Scotland.
The verdict merely said that that banknote was no longer the victim's property, because its current holder had received it by legitimate means in good faith:
Quote
Victory for the Royal Bank was obtained only by re-characterising a rule of bona fide consumption, by spending, as one of bona fide acquisition.

But the verdict obviously did not say that stolen cash ceases to be the property of the victim just because "cash is fungible".  Police routinely seize money from cash thieves and return it to the victims.  If the thief exchanged the cash for other valuables, without the merchant's knowledge, the cash then is "clean", but the valuables are still seized, as being conceptually the victim's property.

That being said, I can't imagine that the legal powers that be would not see X amount of bitcoin returned to one from whom it had been robbed, if the robber could be positively identified, just as they might with X US dollars that had been stolen.  It's also not clear to me why you think legal remedies for theft of bitcoins must differ significantly from what they would be for other effectively virtual currencies, like US dollars.

I am sure that the police in most countries would, in principle, consider bitcoin theft as any other property theft.  And it seems that some people have succeeded in convincing the police to investigate bitcoin thefts.  For example, check this thread about the Intersango scam; and I understood that the MtGOX liquidator has asked the Japanese police to investigate the disappearance of some additional 27'000 BTC.

However, catching a bitcoin thief will be quite hard in general.  The transaction that stole your bitcoins may have been issued from your own computer, automatically, by some self-erasing malware, while the hacker was not even online.  You can point to the stolen coins in the blockchain, but the thief may leave the coins there for years, and no one can take them from him. Or he can hack into an old PC in Mongolia, and from there tumble the coins so thoroughly that it will be practically impossible to trace them to his person when he finally spends them.

AFAIK no theft of bitcoins by outside hackers has been solved, by the police or anyone else.  In several cases of insider theft, the culprit was identified with high probability, but I don't know of any case where the evidence was sufficient to get a conviction.

If they could catch DPR and seize his bitcoin I can't see why it is fundamentally impossible to catch a bitcoin thief.

DPR was not a bitcoin thief.  He ran a large website selling illegal drugs, and was caught for that.  They tailed him digitally for some time, hacked into his computers, collected the evidence they needed (and perhaps the private keys), and phisically grabbed him only when they felt that they had enough evidence.   As others pointed out, that investigation was relatively easy, because SilkRoad was a continuing operation, with lots of traffic and many people involved.
1568  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: September 06, 2014, 10:07:54 PM
Quote
Note that the verdict there was based on the fact that the current owner of that physical note acquired it by legitimate means in good faith, so the court had a good argument to decide that that physical note was no longer the victim's property.   The victim of course still retained the right to get the amount of 20£ (not that physical note) back from the thief, if he would ever be identified; in which case the government would take that amount from the thief's possessions, in whatever form they would find it, and return it to the victim.  

You have missed the point.  The 'problem' you describe is not a problem at all, but a fundamental requirement of ALL currencies.  It's called 'fungibility'.

The ruling of the court in this case recognized the validity of the Royal Bank's claim that allowing 'marked' bills to be forcibly returned to their rightful owner in the case of a theft would utterly destroy the utility of the notes as money.  Fungibility is a hard requirement for any real currency.

I know what "fungibility" means, But note the boldfaces in my post.  That is exactly what I wrote.  The court ruled that that physical  banknote was not the victim's property any more.  But of course the 20£ (as abstract amount) that the thief stole remained the victim's property, and the government would take 20£ from the thief and return then to the victim, if they were to identify him and found that he had that much money in his possession or in his bank account.

EDIT: quote markup
1569  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: September 06, 2014, 07:05:22 PM
Indeed, there seems to be a fundamental dilemma there.  Satoshi solved the problem of secure trustless e-payments, but there is still no solution for the problem of recovering stolen coins without spoiling that primary goal.
Jorge, here is a study of an important case involving the theft of bank notes and the Royal Bank of Scotland.  This case illustrates pretty clearly why fungibility of a currency takes precedence over being able to recover stolen currency.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2260952

Note that the verdict there was based on the fact that the current owner of that physical note acquired it by legitimate means in good faith, so the court had a good argument to decide that that physical note was no longer the victim's property.   The victim of course still retained the right to get the amount of 20£ (not that physical note) back from the thief, if he would ever be identified; in which case the government would take that amount from the thief's possessions, in whatever form they would find it, and return it to the victim. 

Ideally the same should happen in bitcoinland: if a hacker steals one bitcoin from you, and buys a megapizza with it, you should be able to ask the government to hunt down the hacker, and take one bitcoin (not THAT bitcoin), or equivalent dollars, from HIS possessions (not from the pizza parlor's possessions)  and return it to you.

But, in reality, you will not even be able to prove to the police that a theft took place.
1570  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: September 06, 2014, 06:45:00 PM
I have some sliver coins got stolen. Please teach me how I could recover them.
You go to the police and hope that they can catch the thief and get your coins back.
So just do the same in case your bitcoin is stolen.
Do you know of any case?
1571  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: September 06, 2014, 06:39:24 PM
Indeed, there seems to be a fundamental dilemma there.  Satoshi solved the problem of secure trustless e-payments, but there is still no solution for the problem of recovering stolen coins without spoiling that primary goal.

This is unsolvable. Please ponder about the definition of 'stolen' in a system where property is defined by 'knowledge of a key'.
There is no way to mathematically demonstrate that a transaction, for example, was fraudulent. Or that if two people know the same key then one is a rightful owner (whatever that means) and the other is not.

Precisely!

One fundamental flaw of  cryptocoins (that supportes consider a feature) is that they are intended to eliminate the notion of "property" for money, and leave only "possession" instead.

You have "possession" of something if you physically can use it or dispose of it as you like.

The thing is your "property" if, and only if, the  government thinks you should have possession of it, and you can get his cops and courts to get it.

If a thief steals your car, it becomes his possession; but it is still your property, because the government thinks so, and is expected to take the car from him and give it back to you, by force if needed, once he is found.  If your tenant stops paying the rent and refuses to leave, the house is still your property because the government thinks so, and will help you get the guy out.    If a hacker empties you bank account, he may get possession of the money, but that money is still your property -- only because the government thinks so.  If you fail to pay taxes by the due date, you retain possession of that money, but it will be property of the government -- just because they think it is.

There is no way to define propeprty without reference to some government.  If there is no government, there is no property, only possession; and when something gets stolen from you, it becomes the thief's possession, and that is it.  YOU (and your friends) may think that it is still your property, but the thief (and his friends) will disagree; what then?  

By design, cryptocoins (as the libertarians see them) are meant to be impossible for any government (or any other entity) to take away from their possessors.  But then, by design, no government (or any other authority) can enforce any property rights on cryptocoins.  (Indeed, early adopters had hoped that the government would be unable even to discover who has possession of the coins; and now that bitcoin has been found to be inadequate in this aspect, they  are turning to more sophisticated "truly anonymous" altcoins.)  

Therefore, there is no concept of "property" in the realm of cryptocoins.  Only "possession".

The notion of "property" as distinct from "possession" is very old; it may have been invented when humans adopted agriculture and settled down, abandoning the "share the catch" economy of nomadic hunter-gatherers.  It has become such a basic feature of society that people seem to forget what makes it work.  

Do we really want to eliminate the concept of "property" with regards to money?
  
(PS. And then there is the misleading use of "possession" instead of "knowledge" when talking about keys; but that is another issue.)
1572  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: September 06, 2014, 05:51:50 PM
I have some sliver coins got stolen. Please teach me how I could recover them.
You go to the police and hope that they can catch the thief and get your coins back.
 
1573  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: September 06, 2014, 05:05:47 PM
I fail to see why you think that applications built on top of the Bitcoin network are fundamentally any less secure as a payment method than applications built on top of the legacy banking system.

The Bitcoin applications and their security can (and will eventually) exhibit the same amount of security (or lack thereof) as those tied in with the banking system. That part is obvious, because the Bitcoin protocol doesn't address the security of this layer in any way.

Maybe... But the cryptocurrency principle of offline generation of key/address pairs so distinct from the traditional models that it  is hard to compare the risks.  It removes some weakeness but adds others.

For example, consider the risk that a malicious version of a popular wallet software will choose the keys from a small set known to the thief (with, say, only 2^30 possibilities).  There is no test that can reveal the weakness of those keys, and the probability of a collision would still be very small. The malicious code can erase itself after some time, leaving no trace of its action.  Such a malware may run undetected for months, providing thousands of users with weak keys; until the thief strikes and empties all the compromised addresses at once.  This attack will work even on computers that are isolated from the internet, and could hit cold wallets as easily as hot ones; so the damage could be quite substantial.

(The wallet software itself could be tested after each release by generating a few billion keys and looking for collisions; but the malware could be programmed to detect intensive use, or to generate weak keys only in special situations -- such as in machines with a specific range of IP addresses, or in a certain range of dates -- that the test setup may not satisfy.)

What is fundamentally different is the security of the underlying transfer mechanism itself. In the case of the legacy banking system, built on central authority, it allows high-level interference if conflict resolution is required. In the case of Bitcoin, no such interference is possible, because the decentralized consensus cannot be changed by any individual (or any group below ~50% of network computing power).

So, to summarize: the only additional security that comes from applications on top of the banking system are

[ ... ] b) security through central authority revisions - this part is by design, and it is not at all obvious to me that the positive effects (justified execution of central authority) outweight the negative effects (unjustified execution of central authority). We probably won't be able to answer this question without reference to some principles that we do agree or do not agree on, but I am pretty sure that any case of justified execution of central authority in finance you can bring forward, I or someone else will be able to counter with a case of abuse of such power.
4f

Indeed, there seems to be a fundamental dilemma there.  Satoshi solved the problem of secure trustless e-payments, but there is still no solution for the problem of recovering stolen coins without spoiling that primary goal.
1574  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: September 06, 2014, 05:02:36 PM
Perhaps because, if one answered without quoting, it would be hard to tell which "question above" one is replying to?
1575  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: September 06, 2014, 04:02:34 PM
To be fair, James understands this and has contacted reputable, public, community members as regards escrowing the whole thing.

People buying at the ICO hope to get not just some SuperNET tokens, but shares of a functioning enterprise, with solid software, that they can profit from.  Escrows will not guarantee this.

I hoped that people had learned the lesson with Neo&Bee, but...

2000 BTC raised in less than 2 hours
everybody getting the official price
and some few lucky sellers making instant 2x to 5x
1576  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: September 06, 2014, 03:35:49 PM
In a commercial exchange, the party that delivers first has the right to know the identity and past history of the other party.  If someone asks you to pay upfront but refuses to identify himself, you should assume he is a scammer, and not have any business with him. 
You are confusing "rights" with "right to negotiate".  Either side can say no for many reasons.
That someone has the right to hide his identity, of course; but, whatever his excuse, the smart option for you is to walk away.
1577  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: September 06, 2014, 02:37:42 PM
Further, one of our ICO requirements is identity verification (https://www.poloniex.com/icoRequirements); this requirement exists to protect investors and to lend credibility to the ICO. Despite several attempts to convince James the importance of revealing his identity, we were ultimately unable to reach an agreement that satisfied both parties.

In a commercial exchange, the party that delivers first has the right to know the identity and past history of the other party.  If someone asks you to pay upfront but refuses to identify himself, you should assume he is a scammer, and not have any business with him. 
1578  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: September 06, 2014, 02:14:24 PM
Well i didnt mean to offense anyone and i do respect all countries but this exactly the problem:  who is going to suffer from such radical shift in their currency (from worthless to 1,4$)? hum? The local people.

The exchange rate is irrelevant, what matters is whether banks and government can survive without issuing new money.  (The Italian lira was worth a fraction of a penny when Italy switched to euro, yet Italians did not suffer more than Germans with the conversion.)

Quote
and brits are much clever than US and EU. Why do you think they kept their currency? Roll Eyes

What?!? But... they eat boiled tomatos at breakfast, and spread mint jelly on their meat...  Tongue

 Cheesy
1579  Other / Off-topic / Re: Answer the question above with a question. on: September 06, 2014, 01:59:01 PM
How long are these posts going to go? Tongue
Well, how many possible questions are there?
1580  Economy / Speculation / Re: rpietila Calling the Bottom on: September 06, 2014, 01:42:08 PM
Tumbling addresses as I understand are not part of the final count as they end up empty.

I am assuming that this graph counts addresses that appear in the blockchain (as output addresses) for the first time on each day, and does not subtract addresses that have become empty on that day.  Is this second assumption incorrect?

(Sigh, blockchain.info should have explained more precisely what is being shown in each chart...)

In the extreme tumbling scenario I just described, there would be 150'000 new addresses created every day, and all would be non-empty at the end of the day.

Quote
deposits at an exchange are most often pooled often in identified address, and wouldn't add a significant count. (I've done a few purchase lately with bitpay and found they even reuse address that end up empty so that doesn't add either. I think exchange withdrawals are a legitimate addition to the total as those are the final unique address holding coins that are counted.

Exchange deposits and withdrawals may contribute little to the new address count, but they may be a substantial part of the <transactions per day> and <total output volume per day> plots.  After MtGOX, exchange clients are advised to keep their balances to a minimum.

It does not seem right to count those BTC transfers as real use: although the input and output addresses have distinct owners, the coins in the exchange logically belong to the clients, so they are not "payment" for anything.  It would be like counting cash deposits and withdrawals at banks as part of the GDP.

The blockchain traffic from Chinese bitcoiners, for example, must be almost 100% exchange deposits and withdrawals; its use for e-payments is probably very small.

Quote
While the measurements may not be accurate I feel confident they are magnitudes more accurate than the tools to manage existing monetary policies.

Banks and businesses are required to report their activity to their government, for tax and other purposes, and there are many thousands of people whose full-fime job is to extract useful statistics from that raw data.  For example, the published numbers on credit card usage are probably accurate to 2 digits, at least; and we know the subtotals by country and purpose.  Ditto for total salaries, total company income, etc.

There is no such data for bitcoin.  We don't know how much of the traffic shown in the blockchain.info plots are payments for goods and services.  It could be 10% or 90% -- and the fraction could vary substantially from month to month.

In fact, the shape of those plots over the last couple of years suggests that most of that traffic is NOT commercial payments.

Quote
manipulation doesn't prove anything or give anyone a quantitative competitive advantage just yet.

Inflation of the blockchain traffic would obviously benefit all bitcoin enterprises, especially bitcoin invstment funds.  For example, I have seen a couple of articles recently claiming that bitcoin has already passed PayPal in volume of payments --- using the blockchain.info <total output volume> as the bitcoin number.

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