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February 27, 2014, 09:29:45 PM *
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261  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: BitcoinWisdom.com - Live Bitcoin/LiteCoin Charts on: February 17, 2014, 12:13:33 AM
Perhaps bitcoinwisdom should remove MTGOX's price from their site.

I think that MtGOX should remain available in the menu, but not at the top of the list.
262  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 10:35:35 PM
And the Karpeles, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
On the blue ball of plastic just above the wooden floor;
And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming,
And the lamp-light o'er him streaming throws his bitcoins on the floor;
And my coins from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
Shall be lifted--nevermore!

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
263  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 10:29:10 PM
Checking the Chinese Slumber Method prediction for today:

Well, better than yesterday, but..

Prediction posted: 2014-02-16 03:01 UTC
Prediction valid for: 2014-02-16 19:00--19:59

Huobi

Huobi's predicted price: 3885 -- 3945 CNY (3915 plus or minus 30)
Huobi's actual price: 3675 -- 3790 CNY ( 3733 plus or minus 58)
Error center-to-center: 182 CNY

The prediction is the rightmost blue rectangle, just above the price bars.  The yellow dots are the prices at 19:00 UTC every day.


Huobi's clients again kept trading unit late.  There was still significant volume at 19:00 UTC (03:00 China time).  It may have been arbitrage from Bitstamp, which had a large peak of volume at that time.

Bitstamp

Bitstamp'sp predicted price: 630 -- 650 USD (640 plus or minus 10)
Bitstamp's actual price: 590 -- 620 USD (605 plus or minus 15)
Error center-to-center: 35 USD

The prediction is the rightmost blue rectangle, just above the price bars.  The yellow dots are the Huobi prices at 19:00 UTC every day,
divided by the currenct factor R (9.40 for feb/07--feb/09, 6.12 for all other days).



264  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 09:10:33 PM
Startled at the stillness broken, by a crash so rudely woken,
"Doubtless", said I, "news should matter of the overstock and stores;
call upon a Wall Street master, stop the unmerciful disaster,
it's falling fast and falling faster..." till the charts one burden bore,
"Monday morrow he will fail us... as he has failed us before."
And withdrawals? "Nevermore."
265  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 08:34:18 PM
[ Off topic ]
Earlier I mentioned a French thriller called "Number 13".  I misremebered the title, sorry; "Number 13" is an old Hitchcock movie.
The one I was thinking of is "13 Tzameti"
266  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 05:20:19 PM
Otherwise let's both just keep on truckin'.
It's a deal  Smiley
267  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 04:34:17 PM
I stopped reading your posts as closely once I determined you were mired not only in the same old beginner's misunderstandings but also lacked the will to research some basic things before spreading FUD. [...] It's so egregious a flaw in character that it makes me confident you have some other agenda, like the rest of the redonkulous bears here.

Suit yourself, but if you are not willing to read my posts please save yourself the trouble of commenting them.
268  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 04:15:12 PM
'Scientists count whales from space' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26075274
And I didn't even know that whales came from space.  Wink

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
269  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 04:12:37 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forex_scandal
Quote
The discussions in the chatrooms were interspersed with jokes about manipulating the forex market and repeated references to alcohol, drugs, and women.

What, they did not post pictures of trains, dead bulls, dinosaurs?  How lame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket_shop_(stock_market)

Quote
A boiler room has been defined as a place where high-pressure salespeople use banks of telephones to call lists of potential investors (known as "sucker lists") in order to peddle speculative, even fraudulent, securities.

Hey, thanks!  I had been trying to remember the name of this movie:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiler_Room_(film)
Everyone who is considering investing in any kind of market should watch it first...

And now I understand a bit more of this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

Can folks in other countries maybe post what cow sounds are in their language/country. Kinda neat, I think.

Portuguese: Cow "Mu", dog "au au", cat "miau", sheep "bé", pig "oinc", duck "qua qua", rooster "cocoricó"
270  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 03:39:56 PM
Yes. His brain and his heart have both confirmed the findings.

Have you seen my reply to erdogan?
271  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 03:37:11 PM
MP is a professional scoundrel

Oops, thanks!...
272  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 02:24:06 PM
there is a time to declare an attempt dead

I NEVER declared bitcoin "dead", not even when may people were screaming so. (Talking of strawmen...  Wink

I still wish that it will succed. I am skeptical that it will. (Desires should not be confused with forecasts.) But I believe that it will stay alive for years (unless a really serious bug is found, or the US decides to ban it -- both very unlikely in my view).

According to that strict interpretation of probabilities and their application to real life events, *all* investments are equally good or bad, and there is no way to make an informed decision.

Not at all.  While probablilities are ultimately subjective, in many cases most people will assign roughly similar probabilities.  And when people share what they know about something, their probability estimates usually converge.

Everybody will agree that the chance of snake eyes at dice is 1/36, for example.  While diferent people will assign different probabilities to "a whale will fall from the sky into the Grand Canyon",  most will pick a very small number.

For a more complicated situation, closer to the issue, consider investing on oil industry stock.  Seasoned investors know a lot about the science, technology, economics, and companies in the field.  They have data on how often such and such kind of field yielded so much oil, and so on.  Thus the probabilities they assign to future events are often shared by other investors, and if they make money in a string of investments, that is empirical evidence that their algorithms are good.  They should all assign low probability to there being oil under Campinas, and hence would say, with authority, that a company that proposes to dig there is a bad investment.

For bitcoin, however, there is no history of similar projects that one could point to in order to change other people's assumed probabilities.  It is an "internet based project", sure; but that class is so vast and varied that it would be foolish to use its frequency of success as probability of bitcoin's success.

Bitcoin has many unique key features, such as the need for cooperation of thousand volunteers players to maintain the blockchain up-to-date under a very tight protocol, in exchange for a reward whose value depends on a speculative market.

Most successful internet innovations - -Google, Facebook, Twitter, Amazon,  etc. -- are not at all like that. Wikipedia depends on a network of volunteers too, but it has cetralized control and processing, has only loose protocols about format, no timing requirements, no material reward, etc.  GNU/Linux is almost decentralized but has even less requirements.

Tor and BitTorrent may be more similar, but again the motivations are different and they are intended for a niche "market" with little money involved.

So, without a string of "similar" projects to serve as a guide, what information could people use to pick their probabilities of Bitcoin succeding in various ways?  My probabilities are largely based on my understanding of the world, how I expect that governments, banks and people will react to it, etc. I can share some of that information and perhaps change other people's perceptions a little; but there is much in my head that I could not convey in a lifetime,  and much that is subconscious too.

Simply *assume* for a moment that (through intuition, or TA) an investor has a way to roughly predict the price function of USD/BTC. My question was: which USD/BTC price function would qualify as a good investment of that (perhaps hypothetically knowledgeable) investor.

Basically, a good investment is one that has expected return per year comparable to the best predictable returns out there, over the time scale one is willing to wait and one's probabilities hold.  That is usually 5% to 10% per year.  So if you are 90% certain that the price will go up by 10% over the next year, and 99% certain that it will not crash below 50%, the expected return will be about 8% at least, so it would be a good investment -- in your view. 

But use slightly more pessimistic probabilities, and the expected return will be much lower, easily negative.

Obviously, if price kept on falling now, never to reach 1000 USD again, everyone who invested in the last 3 months could conclude it was a bad investment. If however price recovers, and keeps on rising, there is really no meaningful way to declare it a "bad investment" until at some point it doesn't recover anymore.

That is my point, you cannot tell whether one investment was good or bad investment (perhaps we should say, "wise or dumb"?) from its outcome.  If someone makes a series of similar investments, and makes money on the average, then you can say that his way of assigning probabilities and choosing investments must have some merit.

So, why do I say that bitcoin is a terrible investment in absolute terms, not just "for me"?  Because if we were to tell to an unbiased and non-naive investor all the negative arguments, and omitted all the positive arguments that are no longer true, I am sure he would assign such probabilities to the possible future prices that his expected return will be very negative.

Telling someone only that "investing in bitcoin has a large expected return" is misleading, very close to scamming.  Ditto for telling him only the positive arguments without the negative ones (like all salesmen and advertisers do) .  At the very least, you should start by showing the potential investor this chart, and then try to explain why you think that it is not important.
273  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 12:39:56 PM
@erdogan:

This is the article I was referring to. The author does not seem to be completely clueless about China.
[WARNING] besides being a bit old, the article is very anti-bitcoin. [/WARNING]

http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/1404497/bitcoin-bubble-wont-last-without-beijings-approval?page=all
274  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 12:20:06 PM

My picture of the typical Huobi client is a low or middle-class person, who does not understand English, has no programming knowledge, and keeps his bitcoins in his Huobi account.  He cannot use bitcoins to pay for things in China and does not usually travel outside the country.

Is this peer-revieewed science?


Obviously not, but it is not pure guess either. I read somewhere an article discussing why Bitcoin became so popular in China, and it hinted at that sort of demographics.

If you are referring to my question about needing a wallet to open an account at Huobi, I already answered that.  I had asked because someone suggested that wallet app download statistics could be a way to estimate the number of active clients in each country.  I believe it is not a reliable indicator.

EDIT: markup
275  Economy / Speculation / Re: POLL: MtGox's Monday announcement pt2 on: February 16, 2014, 12:07:45 PM
An alternative that is missing is: "the release will say that withdrawals have been re-enabled, but most of them will still be blocked"
276  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 12:00:37 PM
I still do not think that the eventual collapse or full reopening of MtGOX on Monday can trigger a big jump in the price.

IMHO, what caused the mini-crash last Monday was not the news that MtGOX was in trouble, but the statement by Karpeles that the Bitcoin protocol itself was seriously broken.

Even if their upcoming release has another blooper like that one, the markets should be wiser this time.  (Will they be?)

277  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 11:48:18 AM
Anybody just see what happened on gox about 5 mins ago? For about 10 seconds there were about 1k coins to 100.  Then the book was rapidly rebuilt. Shenanigans.

Each chart site looking at one exchange will probe the exchange every few seconds, asking for their data.  While most data can be reported incrementally (just the changes since the previous request) , the API spec that I have seen requires that the entire order book be reported every time.

However, for some sites today that must mean many thousands, perhaps millions of entries.  So I suppose that large exchanges just report the first N entries on each side of the gap.

The wall plots, and the summary that tells how many BTC there are until certain round prices (the top rightmost two columns in bitcoinwisdom's charts, for example) are computed from that data, either by the chart server or by the javascript in your browser.

Once summarized, it may be that, say, the first 2000 order book entries that the exchange returned become only 2-3 lines in the summary. 

So you cannot assume that the order book ends where the summary shown by the chart site ends.
278  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 11:29:42 AM
So you trade GoxBTC for GoxUSD? How is that going to help in a bankruptcy?

Well, I think that "he owes me 10,000 dollars" sounds more serious to a prosecutor or judge than "he owes me 50 bitcoins".

On the other hand, once a MtGOX client sells his 1 goxBTC for 200 goxUSD, he forfeits his right to the 1 realBTC that he was owed before, and can sue them for only 200 realUSD.
279  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 11:21:38 AM
I can't find the reply that first posted this, but it deserves to be re-posted IMHO:

http://trilema.com/2014/mtgox-and-ancient-bitcoin-history-the-straight-dope/
280  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: February 16, 2014, 11:11:44 AM
What is really bizarre in all this is that holders of GoxBTC can currently exchange them for realBTC at 0.78 at bitconbuilder.com,

Perhaps MtGOX clients are not aware of that possibility.

Perhaps there is some snag or limitation.  Can they reallly do that with any amount of goxBTC?
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